Von Neumann cycle stationary plant details

[Douglas Goncz A.A.S. M.E.T. 1990]

I'm aware of Sorenson's book on gas turbines my father used it in study in
1954. Sadly it is not in my current selection. I owned it for years.

Most gas turbines including fixed plants operate on the Brayton cycle and
this original post refers mostly to those fixed plants running a Brayton
cycle. However for aircraft propulsion and afterburner is usually added to
what is typically a Brighton cycle mobile plant to produce high speeds
exceeding the speed of sound. This original post refers only to one very
special and apparently novel cycle which I call the von Neumann cycle for
the following reasons:

If there were a fixed plant with a centrifugal compressor, and extended
long shaft connecting the centrifugal compressor to a remotely mounted
radial inflow... For the sake of argument... Power extracting turbine,

And

Some nut job like me overloaded the burner to produce afterburner
conditions between the compressor and the turbine:

1: the shaft would melt
2: nothing useful would be accomplished
3: there would be equipment damage and possible loss of life

So let's say they were a way around that,
Let's say that like the very common turbo fan configuration used in large
aircraft

There was, after the beginning of the cycle,

A secondary airstream dedicated not so much to propulsion but really
dedicated only to cooling that long shaft, the evidence suggests since this
is already been accomplished in turbofan configuration, enough bypass air
could be directed around the long extended Central shaft to not only cool
it but to get something useful done

That usefulness would be precisely what I now propose

Just for the sake of visualization imagine a is centrifugal compressor with
enough capacity to flow some bypass air of diameter say a foot

Imagine that it's 8 in off the floor and is ingesting air right now and
making a horrible noise

Imagine the air flows upwards and a foot higher in this long system around
this long Central shaft

We have the first burner

A conventional burner which adds enough energy to the gas stream to make
the compressor turbine a self-enhancing power generating system

And then next upwards in the imagination right about it waist level

We have positioned a secondary burner for afterburner use

The question is why would anyone do it

The answer is this tiny thing could melt metals

That's the answer

And why call it a von Neumann cycle?

The cycle is novel. No one's ever put in afterburner inside the gas stream
between the compressor and the turbine. The long shaft is novel. Melting
metals is novel.

The problem of machine tool is self reproduction was first looked at in our
share literature by John von Neumann in notes which contributed
posthumously to the book edited by Arthur Burke's, with whom I spoke some
years ago, that book being self reproducing automata.

Mostly it was about cellular automatons

But the idea of a universal constructor really started there as far as we
know in the literature we share. If you drove back you find others making
contributions but he's got the name for it


So when I call it a von Neumann cycle?

The long shaft between the turbine and the compressor which certainly be
need to be explored but there are designs for long slender shafts that
don't whip they tend to look like the spokes of a chair they are skinny on
each end and fatter in the middle

If you had a small furnace that could blow that kind of air you can melt
metal quickly and cleanly


Which six metals would you melt?

That answer lies to be researched but for now for the rest of my life at
least

I will call a fixed plant with an afterburner interposed between remotely
mounted centrifugal compressor and radial inflow turbine such that metals
can be melted in the combustion chamber and used after melting to pour
castings which are near net shape of the compressor and turbine components,
and thereby used after melting to forecastings which are really of any
conceivable form in a non-trivial way which contributes to calling that
portion of the system a universal constructor,

I'll call that von Nueman cycle power plant

I will be looking for which six metal best that is the same most
effectively comprise neay universal selection. Certainly inconel and Invar
would be there, certainly brass, certainly aluminum leaving too and there's
the rub

You see to get steel really hot you have to blow the carbon out of it and
in the Bessemer process. Is the carbon in the steel ignites the still gets
really hot so you pour good steel that way

So cast iron would be the fifth exempting steel leaving it for a secondary
methods.

And conceivably such a plant could power electrical generating machinery to
do the rest of the things that are involved in universal construction like
power a 3D printer and keep the lights on and keep people warm and happy
and all that.

Anyhow those are my thoughts when I was chatting about this with Jan
Bochenek, who is advised me about these self reproducing machinery ideas
for some 39 years now, and we came up together with calling it the von
Neumann cycle.

Jen already has a pair of 55 gallon drums one of which the upper one is
used for burning the wax or melting the wax out of an investment casted
mold, and the lower one of which is used for heating metal until it's hot
enough to pour into that mold after the upper mold has been lowered to the
floor meaning a very carefully prepared for and everyone is ready to adopt
the risks involved with a pour


I'll tell you more about the additive and subtractive machinery later

But I think this is a useful contribution towards self-replicating
factories in general

Let's see what's the physics content

Well the long shaft makes the combustion chamber toroidal and then the
insulation in the middle makes it sort of thermally toroidal, that is to
say that that toroidal coordinates are involved in the analysis of the
combustion chamber in the shaft configuration to keep the whole thing for
melting in place and blowing up

And I like stuff that blows up or can blow up

I like toroidal coordinates and probably so do you

So there's your coordinate system and that's physics

Good night

--00000000000042598f06217fade3
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">I&#39;m aware of Sorenson&#39;s book on gas turbines my f=
ather used it in study in 1954. Sadly it is not in my current selection. I =
owned it for years.=C2=A0<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Most=
gas turbines including fixed plants operate on the Brayton cycle and this =
original post refers mostly to those fixed plants running a Brayton cycle. =
However for aircraft propulsion and afterburner is usually added to what is=
typically a Brighton cycle mobile plant to produce high speeds exceeding t=
he speed of sound. This original post refers only to one very special and a=
pparently novel cycle which I call the von Neumann cycle for the following =
reasons:=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">If there =
were a fixed plant with a centrifugal compressor, and extended long shaft c=
onnecting the centrifugal compressor to a remotely mounted radial inflow...=
For the sake of argument... Power extracting turbine,=C2=A0</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">And=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto">Some nut job like me overloaded the burner to produ=
ce afterburner conditions between the compressor and the turbine:=C2=A0</di=
v><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">1: the shaft would melt=C2=
=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">2: nothing useful would be accomplished=C2=A0</d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto">3: there would be equipment damage and possible loss o=
f life=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">So let&#39;=
s say they were a way around that,=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">Let&#39;s s=
ay that like the very common turbo fan configuration used in large aircraft=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">There was, after the be=
ginning of the cycle,=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">A secondary airstream dedicated not so much to propulsion but really de=
dicated only to cooling that long shaft, the evidence suggests since this i=
s already been accomplished in turbofan configuration, enough bypass air co=
uld be directed around the long extended Central shaft to not only cool it =
but to get something useful done=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto">That usefulness would be precisely what I now propose=C2=A0<=
/div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Just for the sake of vis=
ualization imagine a is centrifugal compressor with enough capacity to flow=
some bypass air of diameter say a foot=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"auto">Imagine that it&#39;s 8 in off the floor and is inges=
ting air right now and making a horrible noise=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"=

<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Imagine the air flows upwards and a foot highe=

r in this long system around this long Central shaft=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D=
"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">We have the first burner=C2=A0</div><div=
dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">A conventional burner which adds =
enough energy to the gas stream to make the compressor turbine a self-enhan=
cing power generating system=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">And then next upwards in the imagination right about it waist le=
vel=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">We have positi=
oned a secondary burner for afterburner use=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><b=
r></div><div dir=3D"auto">The question is why would anyone do it=C2=A0</div=

<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">The answer is this tiny thin=

g could melt metals=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
">That&#39;s the answer=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto">And why call it a von Neumann cycle?=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br=

</div><div dir=3D"auto">The cycle is novel. No one&#39;s ever put in after=

burner inside the gas stream between the compressor and the turbine. The lo=
ng shaft is novel. Melting metals is novel.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><b=
r></div><div dir=3D"auto">The problem of machine tool is self reproduction =
was first looked at in our share literature by John von Neumann in notes wh=
ich contributed posthumously to the book edited by Arthur Burke&#39;s, with=
whom I spoke some years ago, that book being self reproducing automata.=C2=
=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Mostly it was about =
cellular automatons=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
">But the idea of a universal constructor really started there as far as we=
know in the literature we share. If you drove back you find others making =
contributions but he&#39;s got the name for it=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"=

<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">So when I call it=

=C2=A0 a von Neumann cycle?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">The long shaft between the turbine and the compressor which certainly b=
e need to be explored but there are designs for long slender shafts that do=
n&#39;t whip they tend to look like the spokes of a chair they are skinny o=
n each end and fatter in the middle=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto">If you had a small furnace that could blow that kind of a=
ir you can melt metal quickly and cleanly=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Which six metals would =
you melt?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">That answer li=
es to be researched but for now for the rest of my life at least=C2=A0</div=

<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I will call a fixed plant wi=

th an afterburner interposed between remotely mounted centrifugal compresso=
r and radial inflow turbine such that metals can be melted in the combustio=
n chamber and used after melting to pour castings which are near net shape =
of the compressor and turbine components, and thereby used after melting to=
forecastings which are really of any conceivable form in a non-trivial way=
which contributes to calling that portion of the system a universal constr=
uctor,=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I&#39;ll ca=
ll that von Nueman cycle power plant</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div =
dir=3D"auto">I will be looking for which six metal best that is the same mo=
st effectively comprise neay universal selection. Certainly inconel and Inv=
ar would be there, certainly brass, certainly aluminum leaving too and ther=
e&#39;s the rub=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Yo=
u see to get steel really hot you have to blow the carbon out of it and in =
the Bessemer process. Is the carbon in the steel ignites the still gets rea=
lly hot so you pour good steel that way=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"auto">So cast iron would be the fifth exempting steel leavi=
ng it for a secondary methods.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"auto">And conceivably such a plant could power electrical generating machi=
nery to do the rest of the things that are involved in universal constructi=
on like power a 3D printer and keep the lights on and keep people warm and =
happy and all that.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
">Anyhow those are my thoughts when I was chatting about this with Jan Boch=
enek, who is advised me about these self reproducing machinery ideas for so=
me 39 years now, and we came up together with calling it the von Neumann cy=
cle.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Jen already h=
as a pair of 55 gallon drums one of which the upper one is used for burning=
the wax or melting the wax out of an investment casted mold, and the lower=
one of which is used for heating metal until it&#39;s hot enough to pour i=
nto that mold after the upper mold has been lowered to the floor meaning a =
very carefully prepared for and everyone is ready to adopt the risks involv=
ed with a pour</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=

<div dir=3D"auto">I&#39;ll tell you more about the additive and subtractiv=

e machinery later=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
But I think this is a useful contribution towards self-replicating factorie=
s in general=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Let&#=
39;s see what&#39;s the physics content=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"auto">Well the long shaft makes the combustion chamber toro=
idal and then the insulation in the middle makes it sort of thermally toroi=
dal, that is to say that that toroidal coordinates are involved in the anal=
ysis of the combustion chamber in the shaft configuration to keep the whole=
thing for melting in place and blowing up=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br=

</div><div dir=3D"auto">And I like stuff that blows up or can blow up=C2=

=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I like toroidal coor=
dinates and probably so do you=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div =
dir=3D"auto">So there&#39;s your coordinate system and that&#39;s physics=
=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Good night</div><=
/div>

--00000000000042598f06217fade3--

[Douglas Goncz A.A.S. M.E.T. 1990]

A nearly new copy of Sorenson's book arrived just the other day.

The idea is fascinating, at least to me it is.

Aircraft propulsion plants are all about the highest possible combustion
intensity in kilowatts or even megawatts per cubic centimeter. But then so
are foundries! Why not combine the two sciences?

Tonight I looked up the article on Mach diamonds. Across the plane of the
Mach disc temperature increases quickly, and an awful lot, in very little
space.

There should be some way to wrap a Mach disc around a crucible holding
recyclable steel. This would be accomplished by suitable shaping of a
nozzle, a post nozzle refractory insulated area, a crucible, and even
shaping the gas flow perhaps by r inserting mixers.

I believe, just from what I've read about Mach diamonds, that smelting and
refining steel, at least from recyclable steel, using a combination of a
turbo generated high enthalpy gas flow, along with a turbo generated
electric Arc, and I should mention that many of our American steel products
are refined, along with a suitable supply of injectable air for the
Bessemer refining step in which carbon is extracted from melt, ... Will be
possible, using only coal gas or even methane is fuel, with beneficial
impact on overall industrial CO2 and other types of pollution affecting
that one crisis which we all share,

Global warming.

Cheers,

Douglas

On Sat, Sep 7, 2024, 00:08 Douglas Goncz A.A.S. M.E.T. 1990


<***@replikon.net> ( I ) wrote:


I'm aware of Sorenson's book on gas turbines my father used it in study in

1954. Sadly it is not in my current selection. I owned it for years ....

--00000000000086cd7e062234ce1f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"></blockquote></div><div dir=3D"auto">A nearly new copy of Sor=
enson&#39;s book arrived just the other day.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><=
br></div><div dir=3D"auto">The idea is fascinating, at least to me it is.</=
div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Aircraft propulsion plant=
s are all about the highest possible combustion intensity in kilowatts or e=
ven megawatts per cubic centimeter. But then so are foundries! Why not comb=
ine the two sciences?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">To=
night I looked up the article on Mach diamonds. Across the plane of the Mac=
h disc temperature increases quickly, and an awful lot, in very little spac=
e.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">There should be=
some way to wrap a Mach disc around a crucible holding recyclable steel. T=
his would be accomplished by suitable shaping of a nozzle, a post nozzle re=
fractory insulated area, a crucible, and even shaping the gas flow perhaps =
by r inserting mixers.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"a=
uto">I believe, just from what I&#39;ve read about Mach diamonds, that smel=
ting and refining steel, at least from recyclable steel, using a combinatio=
n of a turbo generated high enthalpy gas flow, along with a turbo generated=
electric Arc, and I should mention that many of our American steel product=
s are refined, along with a suitable supply of injectable air for the Besse=
mer refining step in which carbon is extracted from melt, ... Will be possi=
ble, using only coal gas or even methane is fuel, with beneficial impact on=
overall industrial CO2 and other types of pollution affecting that one cri=
sis which we all share,=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto">Global warming.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">Cheers,=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Dougla=
s</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto">=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Sat, Sep 7, 2024, 00:08 Douglas Goncz A.A=
.S. M.E.T. 1990 </blockquote></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:***@replikon.net">***@replikon.net</a>&gt; ( I ) wrote:</bloc=
kquote></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"=
auto"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I&#39;m aware of Sorenson&#39;s book o=
n gas turbines my father used it in study in 1954. Sadly it is not in my cu=
rrent selection. I owned it for years ....</blockquote></div></div>

--00000000000086cd7e062234ce1f--

[Jonathan Thornburg]

Post by Douglas Goncz A.A.S. M.E.T. 1990
I'm aware of Sorenson's book on gas turbines my father used it in study in
1954. Sadly it is not in my current selection. I owned it for years.

[[...]]

People interested in this might enjoy several series of articles by
Bjorn Ferm on the design, development, in-service use, and maintenance
of modern (turbofan) jet engines for aircraft.

A few of the articles are paywalled, but the free summaries are already
interesting. Here are the URLs that I have (a few articles seem to be
misnumbered and/or mislabelled):

The first series, "Turbofan engine challenges":
https://leehamnews.com/2016/10/28/bjorns-corner-turbofan-engine-challenges-part-1/
https://leehamnews.com/2016/11/04/bjorns-corner-turbofan-engine-challenges-part-2/
https://leehamnews.com/2016/11/11/bjorns-corner-turbofan-engine-challenges-part-3/
https://leehamnews.com/2016/11/18/bjorns-corner-turbofan-engine-challenges-part-4/
https://leehamnews.com/2016/12/02/bjorns-corner-turbofan-engine-challenges-part-5/
https://leehamnews.com/2016/12/09/bjorns-corner-turbofan-engine-challenges-part-6/
https://leehamnews.com/2016/12/16/bjorns-corner-turbofan-engine-challenges-part-7/

The second series, "Aircraft engines in operation":
https://leehamnews.com/2017/01/20/bjorns-corner-aircraft-engines-operation/
https://leehamnews.com/2017/01/27/bjorns-corner-aircraft-engines-operation-part-2/
https://leehamnews.com/2017/02/03/bjorns-corner-aircraft-engines-operation-part-3/
https://leehamnews.com/2017/02/10/bjorns-corner-aircraft-engines-operation-part-3-2/
https://leehamnews.com/2017/02/17/bjorns-corner-aircraft-engines-operation-part-4/
https://leehamnews.com/2017/02/24/bjorns-corner-aircraft-engines-operation-part-6/

The third series, "Aircraft engine maintenance":
https://leehamnews.com/2017/03/03/bjorns-corner-aircraft-engines-maintenance-part-1/
https://leehamnews.com/2017/03/10/bjorns-corner-aircraft-engines-maintenance-part-2/
https://leehamnews.com/2017/03/17/bjorns-corner-aircraft-engine-maintenance-part-3/
https://leehamnews.com/2017/03/24/22757/
https://leehamnews.com/2017/03/31/bjorns-corner-aircraft-engine-maintenance-part-5/
https://leehamnews.com/2017/04/07/bjorns-corner-aircraft-engine-maintenance-part-6/

And finally, the most recent series, "Engine development":
https://leehamnews.com/2024/03/29/bjorn-s-corner-engine-development-part-1-introduction/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/04/05/bjorn-s-corner-new-engine-development-part-1-thrust-generation/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/04/12/bjorns-corner-new-engine-development-part-3-propulsive-efficiency/
https://leehamnews.com/2022/09/01/engine-development-part-3-the-early-turbofans/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/04/19/bjorns-corner-new-engine-development-part-4-propulsive-efficiency/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/04/26/bjorns-corner-new-engine-development-part-5-turbofan-design-problems/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/05/03/bjorns-corner-new-engine-development-part-6-open-rotor/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/05/10/bjorns-corner-new-engine-development-part-7-open-rotor-propulsive-efficiency/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/05/17/bjorns-corner-new-engine-development-part-8-open-rotor-technology/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/05/24/bjorns-corner-new-engine-development-part-9-the-role-of-the-nacelle/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/05/31/bjorns-corner-new-engine-development-part-10-airframe-integration/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/06/14/bjorns-corner-new-engine-development-part-11-core-cycle/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/06/21/bjorns-corner-new-engine-development-part-12-core-cycle/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/06/28/bjorns-corner-new-engine-development-part-13-the-compressor/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/07/05/bjorns-corner-new-engine-development-part-14-the-compressor-problems/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/07/12/bjorns-corner-new-engine-development-part-15-the-compressor-efficiency/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/07/19/bjorns-corner-new-engine-development-part-16-compressor-air-use/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/07/26/bjorns-corner-new-engine-development-part-17-combustion/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/08/02/bjorns-corner-new-engine-development-part-18-combustors/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/08/09/45116/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/08/16/bjorns-corner-new-engine-development-part-20-temperatures/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/08/23/45175/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/08/30/bjorns-corner-new-engine-development-part-22-high-turbine-technologies/
https://leehamnews.com/2024/09/13/bjorns-corner-new-engine-development-part-23-new-versus-old-gtf-versus-v2500/

ciao,